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Talk:Deaths on 24
This article has an archived talk page: see Talk:Deaths on 24/Archive. Summary of unresolved archive issues I just archived the old talk page because it was too long to be readable (as has been done in the past with Tony's talk page and the Main Page talk). For convenience's sake, I have summarized below the possible remaining changes to the Death tally which other editors have brought up. These have not been resolved to my knowledge. I'm not taking credit for these items, the credit goes to various editors including (in no particular order) Ggjk, William.Y.Fremont, Acer4666, Mjs1103, ASHPD24, and perhaps others. # + 2 The Day 1 MUDD siege: Acer has two very strong points to support the argument that 2 guys entered the underground prison with Drazen, but refrained from making the changes himself. This shouldn't be too hard to verify. Confirmed: the Victor transfer scene is hectic, and I only see 9 people maximum at any one point (which is the old number), but this doesn't rule out anything, because just as Acer says, later when DeSalvo radios for Ray and Lawrence, there are minimum random 5 other men visible with him, Jack, and Victor. Ray and Laurence are obviously off-screen, which makes 10 individuals not just 9 anymore, since the transfer. Add 1 more to the 10 to get 11 men grand total since the chopper pair seemed to remain. This merely means that during the DeSalvo radioing scene, 1 more guy was off-screen as well, whether he's nearby, or farther away with Ray and Lawrence in the shootout. It's the only logical explanation for the discrepancy, good work Acer. # + 1 Chopper pilot with Shareef: there is no way Shareef and his guy Salim were flying themselves around. At least 1 chopper crewman died with them. Unless someone has some more information, we definitely should add this. Confirmed: the chopper crash news reporter says it was a military helicopter so bare minimum 1 American serviceman died too. # + 800 Minimum from Chandler Plaza: when was this number seen or mentioned? It's the biggest unresolved issue of the whole list. Whoops, wait a minute. Although Michelle (ep22) and Jack (ep23) both mention this minimum number, we have a complication. This figure includes "dead or dying" and we don't count people who died outside the 24 hour time period, correct? As such, this is a minimum for overall virus deaths, but we'll never know what proportion of the 800 died before Day 3 ended, which is our deadline. Right? I feel dumb I forgot this. #::At the minute, people like Craig Phillips, William Cole, etc., are on the list. I am right in saying that Gael was the only confirmed death from the hotel before the end of the day? If so, these guys need to be removed.--Acer4666 (talk) 13:46, January 17, 2012 (UTC) #:::More on this - during Day 3: 7:00am-8:00am, at least two people are seen being bagged up or wheeled away. However, Jack Bauer also says to Jane Saunders about her father that "this morning he killed hundreds of people". The use of killed, in the past tense, suggests that at least 200 died before the close of the day.--Acer4666 (talk) 22:39, January 17, 2012 (UTC) #::In Day 3: 8:00am-9:00am, Jack showed Jane Saunders the live video of Chandler Plaza and told her that "The people that you are looking at will all be dead within next 2 or 3 hours and almost 800 hundred of them were infected", which means these people were indeed dead before Day 3 ends. So I say that we should add these 800 deaths and there's no need to remove Phillips and Cole. --William 15:59, January 23, 2012 (UTC) #:::They've now been added - and I don't see a problem with the argument above where Jack confirms that they'll all die before 12pm at the latest. The "dead or dying" mentioned in 10am-11am and 11am-12pm were to include any that were still alive, but by 12pm they were all dead.--Acer4666 (talk) 10:58, July 23, 2012 (UTC) #:::I've separated out Gael Ortega (because we have an exact time of death) and Marcus Alvers (because his potential killer is different), and so revised the total to 799 deaths (as casualty figures never include the terrorists who are behind the attack)--Acer4666 (talk) 11:15, July 23, 2012 (UTC) # + 3 Felsted deaths - 6 different bodies of workers are seen, and Mitchell's death is never confirmed, adding 1 felsted employee to the list. Additionally, the CTU team that went was 4 strong and it was stated to have been wiped out the following episode, adding an extra 2 CTU deaths in addition to Criag Eriwch and Rick. I've added these--Acer4666 (talk) 17:12, January 13, 2012 (UTC) # + 2 Rockland building goons: William.Y.Fremont is right when he says that two bodies are seen, one killed by Curtis and one by Lee Castle's team. They're definitely not the bodies of Forbes or Adam or Jason, and no attempt is made to restrain them, so I think it's clear they were killed. I'll add them in--Acer4666 (talk) 16:05, January 9, 2012 (UTC) # + 3 Mclennen-Forster commandos - 6 kills are seen on-screen, 3 outside and 3 inside the store. Lee Castle then reports that there are 6 bodies outside and and unknown number inside, meaning total deaths before Castle moves in is 9.--Acer4666 (talk) 17:12, January 13, 2012 (UTC) # + 5 CTU agents transportting Bierko: Two agents sit beside Bierko and two agents in the lead car. And there should be at least one agent in the third vehicle. So I think we should add the 5. #:: See the thread "Bierko's 3:36am prison escort" right below this one. 21:22, July 23, 2012 (UTC) # + 10 11 Natalia sailors: I plan to re-watch the scenes before and after Bierko invaded the submarine, and count bodies etc. This might be tricky but again, a minimum number is very good to have. #::Here's how I see the gassing go down. Initially, Southern is with 3 other guys. All are wearing dark blue clothes: Skeet has his sleeves rolled up, Dominic Competore's character has an armband, and the other guy has fair hair. None of the bodies that turn up later have any of these three characteristics - therefore these 3 die. Plus Southern, that makes 4. When the gassing happens, we see 4 different guys go down in large open spaces (not tight corridors). 8 so far. Bierko then enters the sub, passing a slumped body in a tight corridor. 9 so far. Then in the next episode, outside the sub there are 3 bodies seen at the port (one by the gate to the pier, 2 by the gangplank to the sub). 12 so far. When Tim Rooney checks the cameras, he sees 3 dead bodies, all in tight corridors (none in the same position as the "tight corridor" body of last episode). 15 so far. Before Rooney kills the sentry, he sees a fair haired guy, with light blue shirt, dead in open space. None of the open space deaths from last episode had fair hair. Now we're on 16. After Jack enters the sub, he passes a guy slumped in a corridor, but this is the same body Bierko passed last episode. So far we've got 6 innocent deaths listed, I think an extra 10 should be added. I can provide pics if needed--Acer4666 (talk) 20:10, January 14, 2012 (UTC) #:I think there's a body when the Jean Smart credit appeared. And another one when Bierko fell down to the ground. About the rest I think you are right. --William 16:04, January 21, 2012 (UTC) #::I see the Jean Smart credit body (white dude, short blond hair, beige short-sleeve shirt, on his back with right arm extended outward) but I can't retrace all of your steps Acer to know if this dude was already seen. Acer if you have those pics stored somewhere can you just email em to me? 01:28, August 10, 2012 (UTC) #:::I've emailed them now (the e-mail may say it's from "David Acer", the email address needed a legitimate first name and it hasn't let me change the stupid thing since!). I believe the Jean Smart credit body adds another, but the legs seen as Bierko falls could belong to either Dominic Competore's character or the fair-haired man seen with him. Therefore I think we need to add 11 to the list.--Acer4666 (talk) 19:33, August 10, 2012 (UTC) #:::: +11 done, thanks men! 18:42, August 11, 2012 (UTC) # + 200 Fayed's Baltimore mall bomb, and possibly others. I will verify this very soon, too, if nobody beats me too it. The shopping mall does indeed have at least 200 deaths by 8am. The problem is, Buchanan also says "the casualty estimate in St. Louis has risen to 112". This makes no sense, as in the previous episode the 3 targets were Chicago, Baltimore, and LA, and then in this one he briefs Palmer about casualties in St. Louis, Baltimore, and LA. I honestly think this is a mistake, and he means that the casualties from the hotel have risen from 47 to 112. Dunno what others think--Acer4666 (talk) 17:44, January 13, 2012 (UTC) #:: I am continuing this topic in the "Fayed's attacks" thread below. 08:01, July 25, 2012 (UTC) # + 1 New issue - the raid on Fayed's apartment in Day 6: 1:00pm-2:00pm. Having watched the scenes carefully, I'm sure that excluding Fayed there are 7 different guys in the apartment. We only see 6 killed during the raid, but afterwards Hal Turner says that they did a head count of bodies and only 1 guy got away: Fayed. So I think an extra one needs to be added.--Acer4666 (talk) 17:12, January 13, 2012 (UTC) # + 1,000 Valencia nuclear bomb - In Day 6: 12:00am-1:00am, Peter Hock said to Karen Hayes that "The country's in shock after losing 13.000 innocent lives". So I think the casualties have grown to 13,000 and another thousand deaths should be added to this page. The number 13,000 might have been mentioned in other episodes as well, as Ggjk has stated. --William 05:27, January 14, 2012 (UTC) #::It's true Peter Hock says 13,000 - but I think once we've establiashed how many casualties have been killed in the other attacks we'd have to take that off, as he doesn't specify they're nuke deaths, just overall casualties of Fayed throughout the day. So maybe about 700 extra--Acer4666 (talk) 11:40, January 14, 2012 (UTC) #:::You're probably right. So after we cut off the LA (23), Chicago (112) and Baltimore bombing (200) 335 deaths, we need to add an extra 665 deaths. --William 11:58, January 14, 2012 (UTC) #:: I am continuing this topic in the "Fayed's attacks" thread below. 08:01, July 25, 2012 (UTC) # + 1 In Day 7: 9:00am-10:00am, dvd time around 06:42 Larry Moss says "there was sniper fire at Schector's office, we got 3 dead bodies", indicating someone else other than Ari and Gabriel Schector was killed there--Acer4666 (talk) 23:43, March 23, 2012 (UTC) #:I added this unspecified person with a tilde on the timestamp to indicate the time of death was estimated. I suspect it was a continuity error. But it's canonical now, so it must refer to someone Tanner killed offscreen beforehand in the Columbia Building, just like how Tokarev killed the elderly guy before he shot Renee. Too bad we'll never know. 17:02, August 9, 2012 (UTC) # ? did 2 or 4 Juma dudes die with gas explosion? # + 1 FBI agent killed by Galvez's bombs, definitely, but William.Y.Fremont, could there be more? #:All right, at least two agents. --William 09:12, January 22, 2012 (UTC) #:: I agree. Jack finds an FBI agent on the ground, then ignores him as he starts shouting for Renee. Unlikely that Jack would leave a man who needs assistance, so that's 1 dead. Galvez smears blood from another agent all over himself; no reason to suspect that guy is alive either, so 2. Finally the guy Renee found is tended to by medics so I'd say his status is classic Unknown, leaving it at 2 minimum confirmed kills. It sucks how the aftermath of this attack seems to be completely ignored later on. 15:06, August 8, 2012 (UTC) # + 1 Apparently, a news reporter said that 3 people died during Davros's attack. I no longer believe that the cop Jim Koernig and his wife Maggie were being referred to at all. It had to be Davros himself; the limo driver William.Y.Fremont discovered; and the agent stabbed to death by Farhad. Soon we will have these resolved. And I already verified and added stuff mentioned by William and others about the Air Force One crash minimum death count and the minimum number of Derek Rosner co-workers. Personally I can't wait for the next crop of issues to come up so we can solve them, too, and perhaps there will be a day when we realize we've counted everyone there was to count. 02:14, January 7, 2012 (UTC) :Massive thanks for going through that monster talk page and summarising it! Just having a flick through myself, was there also some missed deaths on the Rockland Building in Season 4 to check out? Dead bodies on the floor as Jack and Curtis meet up. :On the topic of Season 4 - do deaths from 24: Conspiracy need to be included, as they happen during the 24-hour period of Season 4? In a way, the 257 people killed in Flight 221 are just as much wholly eu characters, never seen or mentioned in the TV show.--Acer4666 (talk) 19:51, January 7, 2012 (UTC) :: First, I'm really sorry I didn't notice that Kevin Keeler was on there already when I added the 75 earlier. My bad Acer, and thanks for going through and fixing that. (Next time I do something stupid like that feel free to just point it out.) And yes you're right I may have missed something, if you want, you can like add it right to my post with a different color or something, and sign it individually, for convenience's sake so people will see em all together. :: The Flight 221 issue came up sometime before, and the result of the talk was: those people died during the first episode of Season 1. The only thing the Expanded Universe did was specify the number, right? :: As for Conspiracy, it's an interesting point although they probably don't need to be added since it was entirely a spin-off. People come to this page for television episode deaths, and that's what it historically has encompassed. 07:28, January 8, 2012 (UTC) Research on 1, 2, and 3 reported in colored text above. 08:03, January 9, 2012 (UTC) :Added some rockland building deaths as point 4. No probs about the Keeler - didn't take too long to alter! :I suppose factu only specified deaths already hinted at, and yeah I'm not mad keen on adding conspiracy deaths (although the current inclusion criteria wording would include them) so no big deal. Ideally I'd like this page to exclude all eu info completely - what I loved about s1 was the casual killing off of established characters like Mark DeSalvo, Krugman, Ted Paulson, and then Mark Cerasini wades in and arbitrarily decides to keep some alive, kind of robbing the show of the drama of those scenes. I think it's cos back when season 1 was originally on TV, I made a list of deaths myself, without reading the eu material. Anyway, rant over! Back to confirming these points.--Acer4666 (talk) 18:29, January 9, 2012 (UTC) ::Regarding the Rockland building situation, after Jack met up with Curtis, Lee asked "How many are still alive" and Curtis replied "I'm not sure. But at least four" (which I believe including Ali). And during the 05:52:14 split screen a man can be seen lying on the ground (I'm not sure if he was the same man killed by Curtis, but it would be strange that Lee and his men spent five minutes staying at the same place). Since that henchman killed by Curtis had been added by Acer, I think that we should add another 2 more deaths. Any objections? ::Also when that IDS Flase Marwan picked up his phone, he said something like "Hey Bob, what's going on", but I'm not sure whether it's worth an article. ::And I suggest that you guys take Felsted shootout casualties and MF commandos issues into consideration. --William 10:46, January 10, 2012 (UTC) :::Yeah, I forgot about the felsted security, even though we'd resolved it on the talk page I never went and did the changes. I'll do it now. :::As for the other Rockland building body - that's definitely the same body as the guy killed by Curtis (comparison here) It's on the same floor, in the same position, next to the same set of doors. When Curtis said 4 alive, I believe he was referring to Ali, Marwan, Forbes, and the other guy killed by Castle's men. :::And I don't see what needs to be changed with the MF commandoes. At 7:53 Castle said he could see 6 down outside - and there are six kills on the list before that (4 by Jack, 1 by Safa and 1 by Paul Raines). What needs changing?--Acer4666 (talk) 15:44, January 10, 2012 (UTC) :I'm not sure about the "4 alive", let's wait for others' opinions. :Jack killed 3 commandos outside the store. The fourth kill and Paul's and Safa's kill were made inside the store. But when Castle's team reached the location, he said "Six down outside", which means they probably killed another 3 commandos off-screen? --William 15:59, January 10, 2012 (UTC) ::Ah, that makes sense. I'll add an extra three MF commandos, if no-one has objections by tomorrow.--Acer4666 (talk) 16:07, January 10, 2012 (UTC) :::Added, summarised it above and added another issue with Day 6.--Acer4666 (talk) 17:12, January 13, 2012 (UTC) Bierko's 3:36am prison escort The survivors of the Bierko prison escort are only: Davis (Day 5), the terrorist who was driving, and Bierko himself. Everyone else got killed, and I'm seeing at least 3 of them: two TAC guys who flank Bierko as he sits down in the van, and the driver of the lead car which is a sedan that gets blown up with an IED. When Davis makes his report, there are 2 corpses, as far as I can tell these were the two guys I mentioned earlier. Interestingly there is a flaming wreck behind the van, in addition to the flaming sedan in front of it. I suppose this is supposed to be a third CTU vehicle? Davis does say to Karen "two vehicle escort" which might mean "2 vehicles are escorting the main transport" for a total of three. Since there has to be at least 1 guy in that third vehicle, the count goes up to 4 deaths minimum. (I don't want to raise the number higher than 4 because I cannot prove that there was anyone else in either the lead or the rear vehicle besides the drivers, and it does not seem possible to determine if anyone was seated in the passenger seat next to the terrorist driver. Also it looks like Davis was sitting alone across from Bierko.) 09:14, April 23, 2012 (UTC) :That all makes sense to me--Acer4666 (talk) 12:58, April 23, 2012 (UTC) :: Added, but I'm making sure with William that it wasn't 5 men, as he suggested back in January. 21:22, July 23, 2012 (UTC) ::: Yeah it does turn out to be 5, William confirmed it. I'm adding the other 1. 05:13, July 25, 2012 (UTC) Adding ticks I just went through and added checkmark ticks to all the stuff I know was added, for the purpose of making it clear what else needs to be looked at again. Feel free to add ticks if you know the content was added/subtracted/vetoed. I do know I missed a few. 21:22, July 23, 2012 (UTC) Season 4, 5, and 6 Prequels Since Redemption is the prequel for Season 7 (and is referred to as a "prequel" for Season 7 by many sites online), should the deaths from the prequels of the previous three seasons be included (I believe five total)? I'm unsure of why Redemption's deaths are included but not those. Nfl392 (talk) 18:19, July 24, 2012 (UTC) :Many reasons - the prequels are "expanded universe" just like novels & games because they were never shown as episodes on TV. They were just special features on a DVD, whereas Redemption was an episode shown on TV. It's actually a "prologue", so those (unofficial) sites are wrong to call it a prequel (just as the "official" prequels are wrongly named). :Also, the time periods covered by the prequels often span the entire gap between the seasons, so we would often have to include all mentioned deaths from novels, games etc. that happened in between the seasons. I believe the point of this page is to count deaths that happened during the time period covered by aired episodes of the TV show, as per the introductory paragraph.--Acer4666 (talk) 19:29, July 24, 2012 (UTC) :: I agree with Acer in principle but for different reasons. (In the past, Acer and I agreed to disagree about the "span the entire gap between the seasons" point, because for me they only span what they show to occur in the live action.) Primarily I'm fine with not including those deaths here because Proudhug wouldn't budge on the definition of "expanded universe". Either way, in my opinion it is said and done. 05:13, July 25, 2012 (UTC) Season 6 Prequel Regardless of whether the prequel deaths are included or not: In the Season 6 prequel, of course the whole "escape" was a ruse but were those Chinese guards actually killed by the mercenaries (I don't doubt that Cheng Zhi and the Chinese government would be willing to let them get killed as long as the ruse worked) or were the shootings fake, a la Greg Seaton and Stokes (Day 7)? Nfl392 (talk) 18:22, July 24, 2012 (UTC) :I don't believe that is ever revealed--Acer4666 (talk) 19:30, July 24, 2012 (UTC) FBI Agents at Crescent Collectibles (Day 2, 2pm-3pm)? The FBI agent with a battering ram was shot twice by a terrorist with a pistol and fell to the ground. A second agent going through the main entrance was hit by an automatic weapon (multiple rounds), and he slumped against the wall and hit the floor. These are "not included" apparently because of their protective gear, even though we have no visual evidence they survived the shots. In Day 4 (10:08 pm), a CTU agent was hit by an automatic weapon (multiple rounds) and wore protective gear, and he falls to the ground. The Deaths on 24 page lists him as dead, even though it was really no different from the FBI agents from Day 2. In Day 6 (8:45 am), a CTU agent in protective gear is shot only once with a pistol and falls to the ground. That is also counted on the Deaths page. I think that the FBI deaths should be counted, and if not then the CTU agent deaths shouldn't be counted. Nfl392 (talk) 01:49, July 25, 2012 (UTC) : Sounds reasonable... I'll defer to you but will look into it and weigh in if someone says otherwise. 05:13, July 25, 2012 (UTC) It's no different from the McLennen-Forster commandos or Brucker's commandos either. Besides Adrion Bishop and poor Specter, those guys were all shot only once or twice while wearing protective gear, and are counted here as dead. The MF commandos were confirmed dead by CTU, but I'm not sure about Brucker's commandos. Nfl392 (talk) 00:48, July 26, 2012 (UTC) Fayed's attacks At the moment, I'm convinced that Fayed directed 4 attacks, not just 3, during 7-8am. # The Baltimore shopping mall with 200+ dead; # the Chicago hotel detonated by remote car-bomb with 47 dead; # the failed Nasir Trabelsi subway suicide bomb; and... # a suicide attack at an airport in St. Louis with 112 dead. Here is what I have to support it so far: first, while he's talking with Masheer, Fayed only says "other attacks" at the end of 7-8am, not anything with a number like "our other 2 attacks". Now, although Milo does indeed mention three simultaneous attacks, but who says it is impossible that 1 other attack didn't get reported right away, or that it happened a minute or so afterward? Nothing, really. Shortly after 8am, we attend Buchanan right in the middle of summarizing the attacks to the President, and he talks about a St. Louis attack with a revised casualty count. Currently, we are construing this as a mistake and saying this is supposed to be the revised Chicago hotel estimate. However, they are staring at a TV showing a suicide bomb aftermath at an airport. It must be the same thing by process of elimination. Additionally, there's no way to disprove the strong possibility that Buchanan may have just been talking about the Chicago hotel the moment before the scene changed, right before he updated Palmer about St. Louis. Although it may seem initially that I'm grasping at straws to make this fit, I am very confident this is a better interpretation of the details if you give it a chance. This is because this explanation does not assume that Buchanan was saying the wrong city to the President. It only assumes either that Milo hadn't been updated when he reported 3 attacks, or that the airport attack in St Louis actually hadn't occurred at that moment and therefore he couldn't have known. It could have occurred at any moment afterward between then and shortly before Buchanan's update to Palmer. One point of interest is that I haven't checked any references made after 8-9am to those off-screen attacks, because I can't find them, and they may contradict some of this. Also it might be conceivable if the airport attack footage was recycled from an earlier episode, it could be referring to an attack before Day 6. But given the context I find it extremely unlikely. 08:01, July 25, 2012 (UTC) :Seems raisonable to me--Acer4666 (talk) 14:37, July 25, 2012 (UTC) Galvez's numbers for Day 7 & Day 8 deaths examined. GALVEZ'S MURDERS: : I sent Acer some final numbers for the apartment complex bomb explosion caused by Galvez. If anyone needs further examination, I'll try to get those .jpegs forwarded later. Here's what I had written down: 'Ep. 19 (2 AM - 3 AM) :: 6 FBI Agents are seen entering the building with 2 Agents in front of Renee, 1 agent already in there & 1 behind Renee (All shown in split-screen); 5 other agents on the inside stairway at 2:47:02 mark seen where the first bomb becomes visible to the audience. ' NOTE: I didn't count anyone else outside since or after that scene either because they appeared to be the same agents, they were never seen going in or it was impossible to tell in the dark. At least 5 agents (including the main Asian one and bald FBI guy) are seen making it out before and after commercial break and since they're the ones seen outside entering the apartment (first ones mentioned BTW), we need to substract 5 points and it you get 1. The first three things highlighted in bold olblique are in the background and since the last two agents I mention are by the door in the first sentence, one can assume that they're the ones seen getting blown the hell off the staircase plus one of the five agents seen on the stairway is one of the last consumed Also, possibly five scientists blown up by Tony at the gas plant but that's going to fly as unconfirmed. '' '''ACTUAL BREAKDOWN: *The 2 FBI Agents seen in front of Renee are blown up ''(THE ONES CURRENTLY ADDED) * Two agents closest to the camera fall over and the FBI car stops as soon as the explosion goes off, implying that the blast probably fatally knocked him against the steering wheel/he died from the impact, plain and simple (I apologize for the three circled agents to the left since they make it out and I couldn't edit this photo). = 3 * 1 FBI agent seen briefly flying from the blast for a half of a second * Two other Agents (one with SWAT helmet, the other regular) on the stairway are consumed by the blast (one of the is obviously the same SWAT/FBI guy falling over again but since it's used from a different angle, this is a common production trick in moviemaking and for continuity purposes, we can count it as a separate kill)= 3 * 4 Agents outside are knocked down by the blast before it cuts away with one extra big blast = DEAD. ' = 12 on-screen deaths plus 5 off-screen deaths (implicated since those agents weren't seen leaving or unaccounted for) earns you 17 deaths for "Evil Curtis" Galvez ''(22 total when you add the other five deaths caused by the assassin). ' :DAY 8 BEGINNING: - Alver's (Bentio Martinez of ''The Shield fame) two contacts are seen dead in the first episode and those deaths were thrown out because it was believed they were before the beginning of the day, which is sorta odd since the female contact called because it has presumably just happened (most likely by the Red Square sniper) and like most kills, I split them up with the dead contact in the tub being presumably by the RS Spotter). Again, all the wounds were fresh blood and they were outside ready to ambush Avers so I don't see how this happened before the day. Most likely while Jack was waking up with grand-daughter Teri me thinks ... ' Also, this Johnson guy: http://24.wikia.com/wiki/Johnson_(Day_8) isn't seen getting back on the CTU copter so I would rather leave it unconfirmed but that's just me. Do they mention him as dead or is there something else confirming it or what?--Gunman6 (talk) 22:42, September 5, 2012 (UTC) :So is there no way to confirm any of this or not?--Gunman6 (talk) 18:18, December 5, 2012 (UTC) Bishop's Commandos vs Secret Service I think this scene needs to be re-examined. The current listing (in the first section of the firefight) is: * Nabeel * 2 SS agents * Hassan's security guard * 2 more SS agents * 2 of Bishop's commandos * 2 Secret Service agents I make it this: * Nabeel * Bald agent with Hassan (played by Eyad Elbitar, his behaviour earlier in the episode & costume suggests he's Hassan's IRK bodyguard rather than SS) * SS agent standing by car with Dalton, played by Tony Donno * Then Dalton himself * Then one of the commandoes killed by O'Connor (or maaaaybe hit by Jack's shots but probably O'Connor's kill) * Then an SS agent goes down, played by George Colucci * Then O'Connor takes out another commando, played by Justin Sundquist * Then an SS agent goes down played by Henry M. Kingi, Jr. By the end, Molly O'Connor and one more SS agent (played by John Meier) are left, but as we don't explicitly see them killed they can't be added on the list. The net change to the article would be -2. I'm fairly sure about this but will wait for a week for anyone to check it themselves and discuss, before changing it--Acer4666 (talk) 21:31, November 27, 2012 (UTC) :I don't recall Meier's character taking part at all in the firefight but Molly was dead for sure as she had taken numerous bullet wounds but again feel free to reevaluate.--Gunman6 (talk) 22:48, November 27, 2012 (UTC) ::Molly O'Connor was last seen firing shots towards the commandos, then it cuts to Jack and she is never seen again, she never took any bullet wounds on screen. John Meier was one of the last SS agents alive, him and Henry M Kingi Jr were shooting next to each other. Are you able to re-watch the scene?--Acer4666 (talk) 22:50, November 27, 2012 (UTC) :::In making another edit to the Day 8 section, I discovered a mistake in the count, so I went ahead with this change to avoid having to recount everything twice (and rectifying the counting error ASAP). I'm sure enough of my interpretation to do that, but I'd encourage anyone who can to watch the scene to verify I've counted everything OK. If we decide on different numbers I'll make the change back--Acer4666 (talk) 23:31, November 27, 2012 (UTC) Extended motorcade assault: missing deaths? The scene where Eric is named is an extended, not deleted, scene correct? Doesn't that mean we can add the "four additional Secret Service agents in the follow-up SUVs" who are noted to have been killed in the footnotes? 18:42, December 2, 2012 (UTC) :It's in the deleted scenes part of the Season 5 DVD - so I guess it's non-canon. I think a discussion needs to be had about the difference between "extended versions" and "deleted scenes" - eg, the later episodes of Season 1, some episodes of Season 8, and Redemption, all have "extended versions" which we count as canon. But the motorcade assault is a deleted scene like all the rest, even though it includes some shots used in the final version--Acer4666 (talk) 18:50, December 2, 2012 (UTC) :This is an interesting point. Yes, deleted scenes are considered non-canon and while we have used them to identify certain character's names. I seem to recall this scene being deleted but the confusion comes from it being called "Extended." I could personally go either way on this one though since this scene was most likely excluded for time purposes and appears to explain most of the continuity with the mentioned SS agents killed in action portion.--Gunman6 (talk) 23:28, December 2, 2012 (UTC) :: Aha that's what I was forgetting: you ''can use deleted scenes for names of characters who are seen in canonical scenes, but that's all they can be used for. Thanks Gunman! (Those guys will stay in the footnotes.) 05:59, December 3, 2012 (UTC) Salazar's not counted In the not-counted topic it says the corpses in Day 3: 1:00pm-2:00pm were people who suffered from the Cordilla Virus. But the Salazars weren't in the possession of it, right? So these cannot be from the Cordilla Virus. Correct me when I'm wrong. 16:58, December 5, 2012 (UTC) :Are you talking about the corpse which Jack's people drop off at the security center or the bodies seen being buried at Salazar's residence? Either way, I believe they weren't counted due to them occuring possibly before the entire day began. :Don't get me wrong, it could use a little better wording but I think that's why it wasn't counted to begin with.--Gunman6 (talk) 18:17, December 5, 2012 (UTC) ::Yeah this was a little confusing but the Ukrainian scientists who were in possession of the virus provided the Salazars with a truckload of dead infected bodies as evidence of the virus's existence. The Salazars then used one of them to drop off at National Health Services and buried the rest. As Gunman says the deaths occurred before the day began so they're not counted in the main section--Acer4666 (talk) 10:14, December 6, 2012 (UTC) Reading this, it is logical. Of course I knew the corpses (I meant them) didn't count because they obviously died before the start of Day 3. But it also says they were killed by the Cordilla Virus. I didn't knew the corpses came from the Ukrainian scientists. Thank you for this information :) Osch7 (talk) 12:39, December 7, 2012 (UTC) :Yeah, in Day 3: 8:00pm-9:00pm Hector said "The Ukrainians gave us a demonstration. Bauer delivered one of the bodies to health services". Why they chose the body of someone who could be easily linked to them is a bit of a mystery, but there you go--Acer4666 (talk) 20:52, December 7, 2012 (UTC) Day 3 SWAT shootout in the prison :For those who have the Season 3 DVD or any other way of viewing the episode where Jack plays Russian Roulette, one can easily make out two prisoners being shot by Chase Edmunds. It would then make better sense to add those two deaths and then put the rest of the prisoner's fates in the Unconfirmed section. --Gunman6 (talk) 20:24, February 3, 2013 (UTC) Season 6 Total Valencia Casualties : According to a previous post by ASHPD24, here are the total people seen prior to the explosion: *Hasan detonate the nuke, blowing up himself, Ray, Samir, Zamil, 7 CTU agents, and 4 terrorists *The pilot of a news helicopter is found dead, caused by concussion from the nuke '' :We should probably add this along with the 12,000 estimate.--Gunman6 (talk) 07:32, February 4, 2013 (UTC) ::They're included in the estimate--Acer4666 (talk) 11:31, February 4, 2013 (UTC) The named characters above are listed but the CTU agents and remaining men are listed as unknown even though there's a solid amount shown prior to the detonation.--Gunman6 (talk) 11:37, February 4, 2013 (UTC) Carl Benton's death really a sacrifice I don't know why we're claiming that Ike Dubaku claimed Benton's life when one can survive from being shot in either arm and Benton was still breathing no problem. Plus, it was Benton who ended up taking his life technically since he decided he was going to take out Ike and his minions and half-succeeded in doing so.--Gunman6 (talk) 04:49, February 22, 2013 (UTC) :I agree. It was Benton lifting his own foot off the landmine that caused his death. Dubaku wasn't going to kill Benton until Benton would give up the location. Nfl392 (talk) 21:00, March 12, 2013 (UTC) ::I must have missed this. While it may not have been Iké Dubaku that killed Carl Benton, I disagree that it was suicide. Whoever planted the landmine is technically his killer - he may have managed to choose his time of death but he didn't kill himself. If he had stepped on it and lifted his foot off instantly would we claim it was suicide?--Acer4666 (talk) 22:18, March 12, 2013 (UTC) :Yes, whichever person (living or deceased) who set up the landmine would share the credit of Benton's death having arranged the whole mine field but having been on numerous body counting threads, I can safely say that Benton shares the credit as well because just like one would share a point if they modified or tampered with an explosive as it was about to go off or the various body shield debates, Benton would get the point because he willing stepped off the device after a prolonged period (he didn't have to), taking his own life and five others as well along with him. :If he had stepped on and off of it immediately, he would not get the point, the person who planted the trap would. Only when the person is trying to escape from the trap or use it to backfire and kill another person, is it shared or counted as the trapped person's kill as well. :If the person is in the trap and trying to escape but will only speed up their death (think of the SAW films), then the point can also be shared. What Benton did here really wasn't much of a stretch from going kamikaze.--Gunman6 (talk) 23:07, March 12, 2013 (UTC) ::I don't see what logic you're going off to make these rules myself, but I guess it's a matter of opinion. Would Paul Raines be responsible for his own death for jumping in the way of the bullet meant for Jack? ::And the Saw films always annoyed the hell out of me. They kept pitching the fact "he finds ways for the victims to kill themselves", by poisoning them, attaching bear traps to their head, etc. which to be honest is just plain murder--Acer4666 (talk) 23:02, March 13, 2013 (UTC) I'm going off of rules on sites such as moviebodycounts and AllOuttaBubbleGum, which deal with this sort of thing in movies and TV. :I can't remember if Paul deliberately ran in the way or just got simply got shot but if anyone jumps in the way of an incoming bullet at the last minute, both the shooter and the person sacrificing themselves tend to share the point. But again, only if it's at the last minute. I remember that Jack and the shooter played by Tomas Arana both shared the kill in the end since the Jack interfered with the operation and the shooter of course fired the gun. Same with body shields, only the person planting a guy in front of them and the shooter share the point if it's all done at the last minute. If neither of these two scenarios play out at the last minute, it only goes to the original cause of death which is the gunman firing the weapon and killing the person. :I apologize for bringing up the grotesque moments from SAW, I thought that would be a better way of illustrating this since this is confusing to you and I thought that would clear it up better since it's a trap scenario, albeit far more morbid and icky. Either way, if you don't want to consider it a suicide, it can still be a sacrifice since Benton deliberately jumped off the mine (similar to what Angelina Jolie's character in the 2003 film ''Beyond Borders does) in order to kill Dubaku and his men.--Gunman6 (talk) 07:01, March 14, 2013 (UTC) Day 7 deaths * The crash of the 2 aeroplanes - a couple of times afterwards President Taylor says that Dubaku killed 300 people in the attack. I think that makes the casualties on the ground about 30. * Shootout at 12451 Arlington Avenue - Renee Walker says 6 men were killed, and Jack also says all of dubaku's men were killed in the assault. 5 deaths are seen and the store cashier was knocked on the head by Jack, so I think that means he either died from Jack's blow or was caught in crossfire. Let me know any disagreements to these--Acer4666 (talk) 17:25, April 28, 2013 (UTC) : If 270 were killed in the air, then the 30 would be precise right? (Also do you recall where the 270 figure came from?) 16:37, April 29, 2013 (UTC) ::After the crash happens, Tim Woods says that flight 131 was carrying 240 passengers and 10 crew, and it collided with flight 471 carrying 21 people, and there was a high probability of casualties on the ground. In the next episode, Taylor says "Dubaku's already killed 300 Americans". So, it's not entirely clear that all of the 271 people aboard the planes died, or if more than 29 people on the ground were killed, but roughly speaking, 300 died in total, around 270 on the planes and around 30 on the ground--Acer4666 (talk) 17:14, April 29, 2013 (UTC) : So the tally would read 271 crash victims, then on the next line, 29 minimum ground victims, right? I'm only asking because precise figures are better. 20:44, May 1, 2013 (UTC) :: Well it's never stated that there were no survivors from the plane, so any assignment of plane deaths/ground deaths would be arbitrary anyway, but I guess we could assume all 271 passengers died. :: What confuses the issue further is that in episode 11 Taylor says "there's been 271 american deaths already" or something. I suppose this could be a continuity error contradicting her earlier 300 deaths statement, as well as the ground casualties that were mentioned--Acer4666 (talk) 16:30, May 2, 2013 (UTC) Day 9: 8:00pm-9:00pm Deaths I have the deaths from tonight's episode added in, but I'm still unsure of what time to put beside Pete, Stosh and Chell's death. HorrorFan01 (talk) 05:00, July 1, 2014 (UTC) Didn't kill Jack Bauer anyone? I thought he did at least killing 1 person. --Station7 (talk) 08:57, July 1, 2014 (UTC) He is listed. --Station7 (talk) 09:02, July 1, 2014 (UTC) Day 9 Hospital Attack Why aren't we counting Margot's statement of "hundreds" being killed? Noahcs (talk) 06:54, July 6, 2014 (UTC) :I agreed. We should add at least two hundred deaths to the St. Edwards section. --William (talk) 09:18, July 6, 2014 (UTC) :: It is not a specific statement. It could be exaggeration, so I strongly disagree such a statement should be construed to mean "at least 200". Any other examples where "hundreds" or "thousands" was added as a real figure should be scrutinized and removed also. 00:02, July 7, 2014 (UTC)